Legislature(1993 - 1994)
08/05/1993 10:00 AM House FSH
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES
August 5, 1993
10:00 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Carl E. Moses, Chairman
Representative Cliff Davidson
Representative Gail Phillips
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Harley Olberg, Vice-Chairman
Representative Irene Nicholia
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
Overview: Reauthorizations of the Magnusson Act (MA), the
Marine Mammal Protection Act (MMPA), and the Endangered
Species Act (ESA).
WITNESS REGISTER
CARL ROSIER, Commissioner
Alaska Department of Fish and Game
P.O. Box 25526
Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526
Phone: 465-4100
POSITION STATEMENT: Update on Magnusson Act, Marine Mammals
Protection Act, Endangered Species Act and details of the
citizens advisory committee.
DAVID BENTON, Director
External and International Fisheries Affairs
Alaska Department of Fish and Game
P.O. Box 25526
Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526
Phone: 465-4100
POSITION STATEMENT: Update on Marine Mammals Protection
Act.
RON SOMERVILLE, Special Assistant to the Commissioner
Alaska Department of Fish and Game
P.O. Box 25526
Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526
Phone: 465-4100
POSITION STATEMENT: Update on Endangered Species Act.
JERRY MCCUNE, President
United Fishermen of Alaska
211 Fourth Street, Suite 112
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Phone: 586-2820
POSITION STATEMENT: Expressed the need for delisting, after
recovery, of species on the Endangered Species Act.
CHRIS BLACKBURN, Executive Director
Alaska Groundfish Data Bank
P.O. Box 2298
Kodiak, Alaska 99615
Phone: 486-3033
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported a revolving membership in the
citizens advisory committee for different Acts.
LINDA KOZAK, Executive Director
Kodiak Longline Vessel Owners Association
326 Center Street, #202
Kodiak, Alaska 99615
Phone: 486-3781
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the current composition of
the board for the Magnusson Act, and the fee structure.
KARL OHLS, Executive Director
Western Alaska Fisheries Development Association
725 Christiansen Drive
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
Phone: 279-6519
POSITION STATEMENT: State needs the citizens advisory
committee.
DALE KELLEY, Executive Director
Alaska Trollers Association
130 Seward Street, Suite 505
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Phone: 586-9400
POSITION STATEMENT: Suggested that the composition of the
citizens advisory committee should change among the Acts
being discussed.
MOLLY MCCAMMON, Fisheries Committee Staff
Representative Carl Moses
Alaska State Legislature
State Capitol, Room 204
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Phone: 465-4451
POSITION STATEMENT: Asked how ADF&G will work with the
citizens advisory committee to develop a statewide position
on issues.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 93-24, SIDE A
Number 000
CHAIRMAN CARL MOSES called the meeting to order from
Anchorage at 10:10 a.m. and noted that the meeting was
teleconferenced statewide. He noted that Representative
Gail Phillips was in Homer and Representative Cliff Davidson
was in Kodiak, both on teleconference.
CHAIRMAN MOSES noted that in March 1993 the committee
received an extensive briefing on numerous issues pending in
Washington, D.C., which would have a significant impact on
Alaskan fisheries. He said these are primarily the
reauthorizations of the Endangered Species Act (ESA), the
Magnusson Act (MA), and the Marine Mammals Protection Act
(MMPA). During the past session, the legislature
appropriated $400,000 to the Department of Fish & Game to
develop an information and lobbying campaign on these issues
before Congress.
Number 035
CARL ROSIER, COMMISSIONER, ALASKA DEPARTMENT OF FISH & GAME
(ADF&G), testifying via teleconference from Juneau,
introduced his staff and gave a briefing on the progress of
each of the reauthorizations. He noted a substantial amount
of activity with each of the Acts. The goal of this
meeting, he stated, is a strategy for the development for a
public citizens advisory committee that the department can
continue to work with. The department has been trying to
determine the position of the Clinton Administration toward
the reauthorization of the Magnusson Act. He stated that no
appointments have been made, but he was able to meet, in
June of 1993, with the Director of the National Marine
Fisheries Service (NMFS).
Commissioner Rosier stated that during the meeting, the
issue most important to the NMFS was the development of a
fee schedule to help pay for the management program
associated with the Magnusson Act. Other than this paper,
he stated, the department has seen no additional documents
from the Clinton Administration with regards to the
Magnusson Act. In dealing with the Congressional hearings,
Commissioner Rosier noted the most important point that
should be discussed today was the composition of the North
Pacific Council. This issue was raised by Washington state
and they expressed to the House Merchant Marine & Fisheries
Committee meeting on June 16, 1993, their concern about the
problems with the council and their desire for additional
members to be appointed from the states of Washington and
Oregon.
COMMISSIONER ROSIER stated that another concern was the
volume of fish involved in the community development quota
(CDQ) program. The Department of Fish & Game has had an
excellent lobbying effort by the CDQ participants in
Washington, D.C., and have had significant impact there. He
further noted the department appreciated the help and would
continue to support the CDQ program and the protection of
it.
COMMISSIONER ROSIER noted other areas of concern that were
voiced in the House Merchant Marine & Fisheries Committee
meeting included the clarification of state jurisdictions.
A portion of this concern came from the East Coast and a bit
from the West Coast. He said the conflict of interest issue
is alive, and there have been questions asked to
congressionals, and the ADF&G continues to stand firmly
behind the modifications made to the Act in 1990 in terms of
strength of reporting by the numbers and relationship to the
council.
COMMISSIONER ROSIER advised members that he did present
testimony at the House Merchant Marine & Fisheries Committee
meeting on HR780 on June 16, 1993. He spoke of
strengthening the conservation standards of the Act, asking
for the support of Congress in terms of the nation's coastal
communities and shoreside processing, and asking for
additional measures to strengthen the council's process.
The department has that testimony on file, if anyone wants a
copy.
COMMISSIONER ROSIER further advised that the next scheduled
meeting for the House Merchant Marine & Fisheries Committee
would be on August 12, 1993, in Anchorage. The ADF&G
expects markup on the House side as early as fall 1993 on
HR780. On the Senate side, the Senate Commerce, Science &
Transportation Committee, Senator Stevens and Senator
Hollings tentatively scheduled field hearings for August 19,
20 and 21 in Dillingham, Kodiak and Ketchikan. Senate
markup would be expected in the fall of 1993, yet further
work, such as passage on the Magnusson Act, would probably
not be until early 1994.
CHAIRMAN MOSES suggested that the ADF&G go on with
discussion of the MMPA and then take questions.
Number 142
DAVID BENTON, DIRECTOR, ALASKA DEPARTMENT OF FISH & GAME,
testifying from Juneau, noted that the National Marine
Fisheries Service (NMFS) put together a proposal on the MMPA
that would establish a regime to govern fisheries and marine
mammals interactions. In response to that proposal, a group
of environmental and commercial fishing organizations joined
together and negotiated a different proposal to submit to
Congress. Many Alaskan groups were involved in the process
and an agreed upon compromise was put together. This
document has been provided to members of Congress and the
NMFS. The NMFS was critical of several items in the
proposal.
Some of the major points in the proposal by the fishing
industry and conservation groups includes, first, if the
MMPA is not reauthorized by the end of September 1993, the
authorization for fisheries to take marine mammals expires
and the potential exists to shut down some, or all of the
fisheries in the nation.
The conservation fishing industry proposal does many things,
like remove the expiration date, and authorizes the taking
of marine mammals by commercial fishing operations. Unlike
the NMFS proposal, it attempts to identify stocks of marine
mammals, based on some fairly simple criteria, which are
interacting with fisheries that are in trouble. The NMFS
proposal had very general criteria and in essence would
apply a very strict removal rate to fisheries that placed
several fisheries under more severe restrictions than need
be.
MR. BENTON also stated that the conservationists and fishing
groups developed different criteria and tried to focus on
those stocks that were genuinely in trouble. Out of 63
stocks of marine mammals around the country, 12 or 15 would
qualify as critical stocks. The NMFS tested 49 stocks, and
identified 31 as critical stocks. This effort was
successful as it focused on the problem area.
MR. BENTON then stated that there would be a conservation
team consisting of agency, federal & state representatives,
fishing and environmental group representatives, and all
interests to that particular stock. This team would be
responsible for preparing a plan for mitigating the factors
that are causing that stock to go down. The Secretary of
State would have to implement the plan. This plan is much
more favorable because in the past, stocks have been
depleted or endangered and then there are very stringent
legal requirements that must be met.
MR. BENTON noted the other major item in the proposal is no
nationwide permit for taking marine mammals; it is a general
authorization. He said the NMFS wants a nationwide permit
system where every fishing vessel has to register, get a
permit and pay a fee. The ADF&G feels that this method is
overly bureaucratic and burdensome.
The Senate plans to hear from a coalition of environmental
groups, fishing industry representatives, Senate staff and
NMFS staff on August 9 and 10, 1993. They will attempt to
work out the differences between the proposals. The ADF&G
can expect to see a Senate bill early this fall, which
hopefully will get passed and on to the House. If this does
not happen, there are plans to rollover some kind of
authorization until a bill can be passed.
Number 230
RON SOMERVILLE, SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE COMMISSIONER,
ALASKA DEPARTMENT OF FISH & GAME, testifying from Juneau,
expressed his concern with not reaching the September 1993
deadline. Senator Stevens is prepared to ask for an
extension, and Congressman Young has agreed to introduce
legislation to ask for an extension.
COMMISSIONER ROSIER advised members that ADF&G has prepared
issue papers on all of the Acts. If anyone needs copies,
contact Ron Somerville at 465-6139.
MR. SOMERVILLE advised the committee that there have been
four pieces of legislation which identify the extremes in
the Endangered Species Act (ESA). Two of these drastically
modify the ESA. Issues that affect Alaska are the outcome
of the timber summit in Oregon that President Clinton
attended this year, and the recommendations of his
Administration. The spotted owl outcome will also have an
impact on Columbia River salmon.
Secretary Babbitt has expressed interest in bulk listings to
clear some of the 1500 species backlogged for potential
listing.
MR. SOMERVILLE stated that the major points of contention
with the ESA are: the definition of an endangered species;
listing of stellar sea lions as threatened and the potential
listing of harbor seals; listing of the North Pacific coho
stock and, the difference between threatened and endangered
species.
Number 250
MR. SOMERVILLE noted that when created, Congress intended
there to be two distinct separations between endangered and
threatened. A threatened species has the potential of
becoming endangered. The agencies who regulate these
listings have lumped the two together in the past, and now
are talking of creating a third new group of species that
are close to threatened. This will give the federal
government even more regulatory authority. The ADF&G wants
to see a firm provision in the next bill on delisting.
After a species has recovered, it must be delisted. The
ADF&G also wants a provision for incidental taking of
endangered species. There are other, minor concerns that
are covered in the issue papers.
MR. SOMERVILLE advised members that the ADF&G has seen no
movement of the ESA in Congress. Passage probably will not
occur until 1995. The environmental community has indicated
that they do not care if the ESA is reauthorized at all. It
can stay as it is, even without an extension. The problem
is that it may not receive funding.
MR. SOMERVILLE stated the ADF&G is particularly interested
in Section 7, dealing with incidental taking for chinook
salmon. This issue emphasizes a weakness in the Act, which
is permitting. Section 7 covers permitting from federal
agency to federal agency. Section 10 is the process for
state agencies to get an incidental take permit. It is a
very complicated process and takes upwards of two years to
obtain a permit under Section 10.
Number 378
COMMISSIONER ROSIER explained that there is involvement with
Washington state cohos in the gulf area. This is usually a
very small number, 40-60 fish. Alaska is being asked to
modify its fisheries for a very small number of fish.
MR. SOMERVILLE reiterated that this is a very complex issue
and there has been litigation established already. Another
point that must be addressed in the ESA is that after a
species has been listed for two years, a recovery plan must
be made and implemented.
Number 509
JERRY MCCUNE, PRESIDENT, UNITED FISHERMEN OF ALASKA (UFA),
testifying from Juneau, expressed that no one knows the
optimum number of the species, such as sea otters, that are
currently on the endangered species list. He raised the
question of when do you delist?
MR. SOMERVILLE stated that "the issue of describing optimum
species population has been one that the agency has fought
since the Act was created. The federal agencies make no
effort to find out what that optimum number is until the
species is on its way to being declared `depleted'. Even if
they knew what the optimum population was, they have no
authority to do anything about it. Natives have recently
been allowed to take sea otters and other marine mammals for
subsistence purposes. Relative to the ESA, it's a pure
biological assessment whether or not a species is declared
as threatened. There has been a recovery plan thrown around
for the spotted owl."
CHAIRMAN MOSES asked if there were any questions from
Juneau, Valdez, Palmer, Petersburg, Sitka or Kodiak.
Number 615
CHRIS BLACKBURN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ALASKA GROUNDFISH
DATA BANK, testifying from Kodiak, complimented the ADF&G on
its issue papers and in keeping everyone informed. In
reading the papers, the reference to ecosystem management
relates to all three Acts.
TAPE 93-24, SIDE B
Number 000
MS. BLACKBURN further said the issues of waste, economic
discards and by-catch are not mentioned anywhere in the
Department's issue papers. It will be difficult to obtain
funding for research in these areas if they are not
mentioned in the issue papers. The trawl fleet is currently
funding research to try to decrease waste and incidental by-
catch.
CHAIRMAN MOSES asked if the department had any comments.
COMMISSIONER ROSIER stated that both points were excellent,
and should be an integral part of the department's
testimony.
MR. BENTON said that the ADF&G has been working hard in
Washington, D.C., to increase the National Marine Fisheries
Service budget. Continued research depends on the funding
received through Washington, D.C.
Number 026
REPRESENTATIVE CLIFF DAVIDSON, testifying from Kodiak,
stated that perhaps more research could be funded at the
state level.
COMMISSIONER ROSIER said the ADF&G budget has been steadily
decreasing for the last few years. There are several
priorities, but perhaps the state could push more on the
federal agencies for assistance. The programs that Chris
Blackburn spoke of would be very expensive.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON asked if it would behoove the state
to do an issue paper outlining programs that the federal
government should be working on. Perhaps the state should
point out the deficiencies and lack of federal funding.
Number 060
LINDA KOZAK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, KODIAK LONGLINE VESSEL
OWNERS ASSOCIATION (KLVOA), testifying from Kodiak,
emphasized that the conservation element of the Magnusson
Act had to be strengthened. The definition of economic
deficiencies must be more clear. The North Pacific
Council's role must also be strengthened, as far as the
conflict of interest, the current wording of the Act is
adequate. Members of the council need to be experienced.
She said the KLVOA supports the current structure of the
council. The KLVOA also supports the current fee structure,
and the establishment of a citizens advisory committee.
Number 092
KARL OHLS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WESTERN ALASKA FISHERIES
DEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATION (WAFTA), stated that WAFTA was
comprised of four of the community development quota (CDQ)
groups in Western Alaska. He expressed his support for a
citizens advisory committee to establish a coordinated
Alaskan position. The WAFTA has been working on a Magnusson
Act position to endorse conservation, endorse the present
membership of the council, and to discuss the CDQ program.
There are some critical comments about CDQs from groups
outside Alaska so WAFTA wants to be sure that Congress has
all of the correct facts on the results of the CDQ program,
to date.
CHAIRMAN MOSES suggested that the department respond to the
future of citizen involvement.
Number 120
MR. SOMERVILLE advised the committee that the department
needs a mechanism for ongoing information that is broadly
represented by industry and state people. This committee
would help the department in developing positions and for
consistency in lobbying Washington, D.C. The commissioner
will be looking at commercial fishermen and conservation
groups to talk about the three Acts. The bulk of the
interest, however, will come from the commercial fishing
industry. The optimal number of members is seven to nine.
This number will work well for teleconferenced meetings, as
Representative Moses got $300,000 to apply to the entire
reauthorization process. Of that amount, $50,000 to $75,000
will go to support the citizens advisory committee. The
department will send out suggestion forms and nomination
forms for the committee that should be returned to the
commissioner's office by August 20, 1993.
CHAIRMAN MOSES thanked Mr. Somerville and asked if anyone
had questions.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON nominated CHRIS BLACKBURN and LINDA
KOZAK for the committee.
CHAIRMAN MOSES asked Commissioner Rosier how he would like
to take nominations for the seats on the committee.
COMMISSIONER ROSIER suggested that each of the groups make
its nomination, with some background information to the
department in writing.
CHAIRMAN MOSES emphasized that the committee should probably
not exceed nine, and told everyone to send recommendations
to the department.
REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS asked if any legislative
members should be on the committee, or if it should just be
volunteers who could work with the fisheries committee.
CHAIRMAN MOSES said that it could be considered, and asked
the commissioner for his ideas.
COMMISSIONER ROSIER felt that an ad hoc group would be best,
and they could work directly with the fisheries committee to
keep everyone informed on a regular basis.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS stated that the committee would be
better represented with more industry people. She then
asked if the department had any criteria, or any synopsis of
what the committee will be doing and the amount of time
involved. Such a synopsis would be helpful to have.
COMMISSIONER ROSIER advised that little time had gone into
details at that point, and that suggestions would be
helpful. There would be a substantial time commitment.
There was no synopsis at this time, but one would be
forwarded as soon as possible.
DALE KELLEY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ALASKA TROLLERS ASSOCIATION
testifying from Juneau, asked if the composition of the
committee would change, depending on which Act was being
worked on. Some people are versed in one Act, and not
another.
COMMISSIONER ROSIER said that a changing composition is
possible, and members may change between 1993 and 1994.
There may also be overlap of members, between Acts.
MR. McCUNE suggested that the membership between Acts may
need to change, depending on expertise of members.
MS. KELLEY asked if the committee was going to look at the
Clean Water Act, or others that affect the fishing industry,
or strictly the ESA, MMPA and MA.
COMMISSIONER ROSIER advised listeners that the committee
would focus only on the three Acts up for reauthorization,
but the suggestion was good, and perhaps it would be
considered.
MS. KELLEY suggested that the committee should involve the
environmental community, as well as the sportfish interests.
MS. BLACKBURN supported the idea of revolving membership of
the committee among the three Acts.
CHAIRMAN MOSES advised that to cover all interests of the
state, and still keep the committee at a reasonable number
would be very difficult.
MOLLY McCAMMON, FISHERIES COMMITTEE STAFF FOR CHAIRMAN
MOSES, testifying from Juneau, asked the department for a
brief description of the state's strategy to achieve the
position that it will be taking through these working
committees. If any position papers are written, she asked
that the fisheries committee be informed and sent a copy.
MR. SOMERVILLE advised members that the state will work with
the citizens advisory committee to develop a position for
the state, which will then be lobbied for in Washington,
D.C. The department will also coordinate with the three
Alaska delegation offices in Washington, D.C.
CHAIRMAN MOSES asked if there were additional comments.
Hearing none, the meeting adjourned at 11:28 a.m.
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